RESULTS ARE IN: Meta Madhouse - Lex Luthor Masterminds! Watch Official Announcement on DC Daily

C’mon, it’s Amanda Waller. :wink: She knows her physical restraints and is definitely planning for the fight beforehand. She knows she can’t take Shiva 1 on 1. So she’s prepared, whether it’s setting up snipers just beyond the arena, calling in an airstrike, what have you. This can’t be as simple as “Who can punch harder and faster?” because a lot of the villains simply don’t operate that way (and let’s be real, that’s not a very interesting metric by which to make decisions). Whereas Shiva, on the other hand, knows this fight would be an easy victory for her against a regular human opponent, so she doesn’t need to do anything to prepare. That’s where Waller will take advantage of her.

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Watch Superman Unbound, brainiac is his ship, but in this battle he doesn’t have his ship and even if it was ship to ship combat, war world is better armed than brainiac’s ship.

IMO, this is a question that needs to be resolved for next year’s #meta-madhouse . If a character could bring in anything or use outside resources. Waller using a sniper or Task Force X, or a drone strike or a nuclear warhead. She could get access to ant or all all of those. But is that really a one-on-one battle?

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I feel like they saved talia so she and her dad can fight.


How is it that speed & maneuverability aren’t listed as part of Talia’s edge. Let alone cunning.

How is it that people forget Vandal Savage built a shield generator that allowed an area to go out of phase with the rest of the planet in Justice League:Doom. It’s not like Vandal doesn’t understand how to use technology to his advantage.or how Brainiac melted down when confronted with an overload of possible variables that exist outside his nice little sterile environment of city capture? Brainiac is a world conquering threat, to be sure. But, it’s not like Vandal doesn’t know this and put a contingency plan in place for just this eventuality decades ago. Oh, and was it mentioned that Savage is immortal. Brainiac is good, but can he truly take out an immortal? What is the source code in Brainiac’s system to make that happen?

If Tom King’s Batman run proved anything, it’s that Bane has plenty of cunning of his own. As for speed and maneuverability, Talia’s has never been particularly notable. She’s no more maneuverable than, say, Batman, and we all know how that fight played out in Knightfall.

As for Savage, certainly contingency plans CAN be put in place here, but that’s true of all villains on the board this round. If we’re counting sources outside the comics as evidence- and apparently we are, since Savage wasn’t even in the original storyline of “Doom”- Krypton proved that Brainiac can play the long game, too.

As for the immortality point: immortality is not the same thing as invulnerability. Savage can’t die of natural means, and he’s sturdier than your average human, but he also isn’t indestructible (as evidenced recently: the undead Wonder Woman ripping him in half in the latest issue of DCEASED: Unkillables.) Brainiac has fought on Superman’s level before, and has the offensive capacity to rip Vandal apart one-on-one. In an all out war between the two, I wouldn’t bet against Vandal Savage’s ingenuity. But the question here is who would win in a fight?


A good thing he’s not fighting War World then!

I agree that this should be cleared up going forward. If it’s STRICTLY a one-on-one battle and contestants can only bring a weapon or two, then certain characters in these brackets have no business being here at all. Obviously people like Waller and the Penguin can’t go one-on-one against the world’s best assassins and super-powered heavy-hitters. That’s just an unfair matchup, and pointless since everyone already knows the outcome if you’re judging based solely on physical abilities. But I think characters’ outside-connections SHOULD play a role to some degree, since that’s the only possible way someone like Waller could stand a chance. Otherwise, what’s the point of even putting her in this tournament?

It’s an interesting thought- when we tried doing this for our weekly Who Would Win entries, it ended up becoming more complicated. Ultimately, we find there are more interesting discussions to be had when we leave it to the imagination of the members to determine HOW the person they chose would win.

Basically, the more X-factors that are introduced, the more convoluted it becomes.

I think that would actually be more interesting than having us decide- selecting our favorite argument for the winner, and allowing that choice to add an edge.


@HubCityQuestion getting a scope of the compition, how many points do you have so far, if your doing this thing, talias save pretty much screwed me

I think that is a good question. Animation and film are part of the larger DC canon. And if we are going to be able to point to a single writers run of a particular character, say King’s version of Bane. Then looking at a specific instance of a character from any medium is valid. After all, it is merely a single interpretation.

Lobo can regenerate or even generate from a single cell. Savage has regenerative powers. It is possible that in a single instance of a story he has that ability so he’ll even if WW rips him in two, he can survive. Little has ever been explained, one way or another, how Savagr’s regenerative powers work on such a cellular level. So what is truly canon? Should Elseworld versions of characters be allowed. After all, we know (A) it is merely a single authors run/take on a character, (B) what is canon even in general continuity can be retconned at any point. This is an observable fact throughout the history of DC.

All I know is that pit save destroyed me. I had Ra’s v Deathstroke with Slade declared victor. Ouch


Same! The Lazarus Pit has gotten in my way three times in a row now.


Sadly our famed Waller has been reduced to rubble… :sweat:
Although in this instance I’m thinking maybe she found a new target for Task Force X and remembered she had to make them “the bomb” so she let Lady Shiva move on for now… :sweat_smile:


Honestly I’d agree with you, Slade is a powerful man.


I thought there was only one LP save per bracket?

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But Bane was a mastermind when he was first introduced, way before King’s version.


So canonically we know Ra’s has defeated Shiva but not the other way around. The winner here is Ra’s. (Despite @HubCityQuestion blind spot for all things Lady Shiva.)

As Ra’s will say after his victory. “I taught you everything you know…I didn’t teach you everything I know.


He was a good planner but I wouldn’t call him a mastermind in his early incarnations.

“Defeated” is a stretch – he shot her in the back while she was talking to her daughter. Earlier in that same arc, Ra’s ran from Shiva while he threw a horde of henchmen at her, which she dispatched in seconds. And I’d be remiss not to point out that Shiva has had teachers from all over the world – Ra’s only encompasses a fraction of her knowledge.

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