[World of Wonder] Justice League (2011-) #43-45, JL: The Darkseid War: Batman, Flash, Superman

World of Wonder Week 22!

:batman_hv_2::star:Worlds Collide :star::batman_hv_2:

JUSTICE LEAGUE (2011-)

2019-12-25T08:00:00Z2019-12-31T08:00:00Z

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Happy Holidays! The New Year is right around the corner, and so is the conclusion to the CW’s Crisis on Infinite Earths event. Let’s continue reading about the Anti-Monitor and his war against Darkseid in The Darkseid War.

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Justice League (2011-) #43-45

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:rotating_light: SPOILER Discussion Begins Now

:star2:DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

  1. What do you think about the new powers the League has?
  2. Which Leaguer’s story thread are you the most interested in?
  3. Did you expect that death in issue #44?
  4. What did you think of the change in art in issue #45 by Francis Manapul?

Justice League: The Darkseid War

2019-12-28T08:00:00Z2019-12-31T08:00:00Z

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:batman_hv_2:DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

  1. In this one-shot, we see a Batman with absolute power, and absolute knowledge, using it to combat crime before it even starts. But perhaps the most impactful scene we see is Bruce confronting the murderer of his parents in prison. What did you think of how he handled Joe Chill? How do you think he would have handled him without the Mobius Chair?
  2. As the Black Racer compels The Flash to take a life in order to tether their bond together, the Racer says The Flash was created by death, namely the death of his mother. Do you think that’s true?
  3. Under the influence of the solar rays of Apokolips, Superman shows a sense of apathy and anger over the fact that the world always seems to need his help. Was that the Apokoliptian energy corrupting him, or it simply releasing what was already there, hidden deep under the surface?

Part 2 Discussion Questions Brought to You by World of Bats Book Club via @Jay_Kay

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JUSTICE LEAGUE: THE DARKSEID WAR

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Part 2 of this week’s discussion is here! Worlds will live, worlds will die… This week however, Worlds Collide in this Club Crossover! World of Wonder is teaming up with World of Bats Book Club to tackle the epic that is The Darkseid War. With Wonder Woman narrating the main story I enlisted the help of some Super Friends to help us breakdown what is happening in the one-shots. Special thanks to the three World of Bats Book Club leaders; @Jay_Kay for providing the discussion questions, and @BatJamags & @AquamonC137 for helping make this Club Crossover happen!

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Batman:

  • In this one-shot, we see a Batman with absolute power, and absolute knowledge, using it to combat crime before it even starts. But perhaps the most impactful scene we see is Bruce confronting the murderer of his parents in prison. What did you think of how he handled Joe Chill? How do you think he would have handled him without the Mobius Chair?

The Flash:

  • As the Black Racer compels The Flash to take a life in order to tether their bond together, the Racer says The Flash was created by death, namely the death of his mother. Do you think that’s true?

Superman:

  • Under the influence of the solar rays of Apokolips, Superman shows a sense of apathy and anger over the fact that the world always seems to need his help. Was that the Apokoliptian energy corrupting him, or it simply releasing what was already there, hidden deep under the surface?
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What do you think about the new powers the League has?
It’s almost like they are new new gods. Don’t forget Luthor managed to get a piece of this action as well.

Which Leaguer’s story thread are you the most interested in?
Batman primarily, but given all the newer gods thus named, Luthor has my interest.

Did you expect that death in issue #44?
I did not. But watching the consequences of said death should be very interesting.

What did you think of the change in art in issue #45 by Francis Manapul?
Manapul’s art is always engaging.

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I said the same thing!

Yeah, I wasn’t expecting that to happen yet, if at all, especially since we have a lot of story left.

Yeah, I like when art is consistent for a story arc, but how can you say no to Manapul"s here?

Wow! I love this story arc! I’m a huge fan of New 52, and Darkseid War is a story I never get tired of reading.

  1. I think that the new powers that are manifested in certain key characters are meant to re-tell the universal proverb that power can be necessary, but left unchecked, those who gain too much power will become corrupt and dangerous. I think that this aspect of the story also represents the need for balance in all things. In this case, with the death of a powerful New God, the universe is thrown out of balance and is seeking to right that imbalance with the birth of New Gods to fill the vacuum of power left in Darkseid’s wake.

  2. This is a hard question to answer. There are several very compelling story threads playing out here. I think that I find Wonder Woman’s story thread to be the most compelling though. During this whole story, Wonder Woman is discovering that the truth behind her birth and her past may be completely different from what she has always believed it to be. It’s a really rich backstory full of secrets and mystery. What’s not to like?

  3. I’m thinking back to the first time I read this story, and no, I don’t think that I did. Honestly, I think that I assumed that the Anti-Monitor was more likely to die than Darkseid.

  4. The art in issue #45 definitely stands out. I really like the brilliant coloring and overall flow of Manapul and Buccellato’s work. Each panel flows into the next so seamlessly, I love it. That being said, I also really love Fabok and Anderson’s work as well. Their illustrations have a much greater depth of detail to them. While their work isn’t as full of color and contrast as Manapul and Buccellato’s, Fabok and Anderson’s illustrations make me feel almost as though I’m right there on the sidelines.

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I am right there with you with never tiring of Darkseid War.

In a way Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor had been going unchecked as well. New Genesis being the only ones really standing up to Apokolips was stopped with the trade of Orion and Scot. You make a great point about the universe attempting to correct itself by returning balance through the creation of these New Gods. Earlier in the story we see how the lanterns are told their purpose is to keep the balance but that their job will never be done. With that vacuum of power you mention, do you think all of those gods were needed to fill Darkseid’s spot or what might the purpose of so many of them being created be?

I have to agree with you on Wonder Woman’s story. I find all of the threads interesting (even Luthor and he’s usually not my cup of tea in comics). Wonder Woman’s ties to Grail and Myrina, which are two characters directly tied to Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor, make her story much more intriguing for me.

I figured the Anti-Monitor would die before Darkseid ever would as well. I mean, it’s called the Darkseid War.

I never thought of the contrast in the art styles like that. Both styles are so epic and grande.

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I’ve never really thought about that point before, but you’re right. Both the Anti-Monitor and Darkseid had been left to their own devices for quite a while at this point in the story, giving them both plenty of time to become overpowered. That is a very good point.

I’ve always liked this part of the story for the simple reason that it makes so much sense. Just standing still our muscles are working constantly, making tiny corrections so we can maintain our balance and not fall on our faces. Balance isn’t a state that can be reached. Balance is a state that has to be maintained.

I’ve wondered before if so many new gods were really needed to fill Darkseid’s spot. Was Darkseid really THAT powerful that he needed to be replaced by multiple new gods? Or perhaps so many were chosen to fill Darkseid’s spot not out of necessity, but rather, for the greater good. I think just about everyone can agree that whatever amount of power Darkseid may have had, it was a dark power. Darkness is necessary and therefore shouldn’t be dismissed completely, but by redistributing that power it can belong to both light and dark entities now.

And to go just a little offtopic for a moment - one of my favorite examples of Manapul’s work so far has got to be Justice League: No Justice. His work in the series absolutely blew me away. My husband kept teasing me because it would take me so long to read through each page, but it was because I would get so lost in the artwork. I would spend at least twice as much time looking at the art than I actually spent reading.

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Still have the Superman book to read of part 2. Truth be told, i forgot to look at the credits during the reading of the first part and in a sense fudged my part 1 question 4 answer despite being familiar with the artist. It did, however, explain why I didn’t like the Superman that came out of the pit. That ‘I don’t have to hold back’ line calls back a fight with Darkseid from Superman: TAS (or a JL?)

I do like how the Universe is sort of going out of its way fill the Darkseid void. Ultimately, Luthor, God of Apokolips would be the primary in this equation since he has the Omega Beams and presumably will over-ego himself trying to omega beam Superman. That it was rebels that found him should make it interesting, but all i really expect is Luthor drunk with power.

At first, i want it to be sort of the same: to let it be known that Joe Chill made The Batman, but that sort of worked because MobiusBat was able to make him forget. Then i thought he would keep to the background with more surveillance of Joseph Chill, using said surveilling to solve any of Mr. Chill’s unsolved crimes for more time behind bars. Was it said if the murder of Bruce’s parents was more random or if it was a hired hit? Wasn’t there a pre-crisis story where Batman works with Joe Chill in some sort of undercover op but as Batman (presumably having gone rogue?)… But the torment of Joe was a bit extreme but otherwise classic Batman, preying on the fear and superstition(s) of the criminal he’s targeting.

I like how the Chair is resisting Bruce. I am really curious how his attention on Joker plays out. two of the images were Killing Joke. One (maybve 2) from the joker-fish issue. I suspect there are others.

I am still ruminating on the Flash. I have a short answer, but i would like to give a longer one.

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@AntLeon I totally agree with your assessment here. The overall nature of Batman’s actions towards Joe Chill was pretty true to form. He didn’t do anything that would violate Batman’s code of ethics per se, but he goes about it in a very overly aggressive and deliberately cruel way.

I’m wondering though, how much of that overly exaggerated behavior can be attributed to the Mobius Chair, and how much is simply because Joe Chill isn’t the average criminal to Batman.

It’s no mystery that the Mobius Chair is effecting Bruce’s personality. To quote Hal Jordan on page #6 of Justice League #44, “Guess that chair doesn’t just give you answers, it makes you kind of an @$&”. I think that perhaps the Mobius Chair’s influence on Bruce is why he felt the need to confront Joe to begin with. I find it hard to believe that Bruce wasn’t aware of where Joe was incarcerated before he became “host” to the chair. He’s the Batman. He probably could have confronted Chill any time he wanted. He simply chose not to confront him because he knew that he wouldn’t be able to control his actions.

I think that the chair simply made him care less about using restraint. After all, the chair could show him not only all of Joe’s crimes, but it could also show him what Joe was thinking when he committed those crimes. I think that knowing all of that - knowing every deplorable thing that Chill had thought and done in his career as a criminal - put Bruce over the edge. He threw restraint out the window at that point and he felt that he had to confront Chill. He had to hear Chill admit, in his own words, all the wrongs he had committed, and he had to punish Chill for those wrongs.

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What do you think about the new powers the League has?

It’s pretty interesting – it’s a unique struggle for each of the heroes we see affected, and I think there’s a deliberate metatext to it. After all, what does everyone say about the big DC heroes in relation to other superheroes in comics? They are the gods amongst men.

This story confronts that, and from what we see so far, it seems like it implies that not only are they not really “gods” and are as human and as fallible as they come, but we should be eternally grateful that they are not gods.

Which Leaguer’s story thread are you the most interested in?

A lot of them, really. I want to see how Batman gets out of the chair and how Barry gets unpossessed by The Black Racer. Also, when you see Shazam be named the “God of Gods,” how can you not be a little curious?

Did you expect that death in issue #44?

Considering I have read this before, yeah, kinda, but it was still very cool, and a well done swerve. Like someone else said, when you see something called “The Darkseid War,” you kind of assume that Darkseid will be in it for most of it.

What did you think of the change in art in issue #45 by Francis Manapul?

I’m glad that if anyone had to replace Fabok for a moment, it was Manapul. Very different style, but IMO equally as talented. I’m sure that Fabok also appreciated it for a break – he’s talked about in the past how doing this arc was one of the most strenuous things he’s ever done as an artist and part of why he took an extended leave after the arc ended.

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Another thing of note: considering that they call Anti-Monitor Morbious here like they do on the Crisis TV event, I get the feeling that some of the origin we see here will be put on the screen in a few weeks – though probably not with the New Gods stuff, sadly (though really that thing is jam packed enough as it is without introducing New Gods malarkey into it).

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The short answer: no and yes. The death of his mother more informs Barry’s character as Barry, regardless of the accident that gives him access to the speed force to be The Flash. The loss might influence his choices, as the Flash or otherwise, but it’s less about abilities and more about depth of character.

First, when i looked at the credits, i noticed Manapul’s name, but it was as writer, not artist. The Apokoliptian energy was most likely augmenting was already there. Why does Superman need to save to world all the time? because if the world could do what he could do, there would be less of a need for a Superman. But if he doesn’t care, why come back at all? he could make his bones anywhere in the Universe. No, he went home to have some comfort food.

Bonus points to Jimmy for reaching that part of Superman, the change in eyes was subtle but dramatic. And then Superman justifies saving Metropolis (again) more because he can and to further express (at least to himself) his rep of not letting the next alien making a name for his/her/it-self.

I am very tempted to read ahead. I liked that all the newer gods have black word bubbles. Batman and Flash have different approaches to balancing their humanity against the newfound power. Superman, already used to immense power, has to balance or recalibrate his moral compass (internal humanity?) I am very curious to see what is in store for the God of Gods not to mention the God of Apokolips

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It really struck me when they were showing the Anti-Monitor just strolling around taking out all of Earth-3/Crime Syndicate’s Earth. Where were the Lanterns? Did Oa just let it happen or were they already wiped out?

It’s something that comes up again in the tie-ins. Batman think he can finally have one side prevail and Superman realizes that it will never end to the point that it kind of cripples him into inaction. Flash is the one whose purpose is maintaining balance in a way, but even he was rejecting and willing to have all of Central City die.

I still wonder if that was about restoring balance on a power level because Darkseid’s power was returning to Apokolips to be imbued into Lex right? I think it would then have to be about providing a balance on a good/bad scale. Maybe they needed those newly minted gods for the battle against Mobius? I don’t remember the ending as well so I’m excited to find out :smiley:

I gotta reread No Justice. Haven’t read it since it was released.

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Oh, yeah, I believe that was from JLU’s series finale.

I would expect that too since godhood seems to go hand in hand with madness. Absolute power and all that… I could see Lex trying to do good though since he’s convinced himself he’s the good guy and now has people bowing to him telling him he’s good and a chosen one.

Me too. Seeing the toll disobeying the chair was having on Bruce was fascinating. Bruce is really wrapped up in the chair. He does like his toys, but this one might just be out of his league. The whole point of Bruce is that he’s the mortal among gods, but when he becomes a god, what then?

That part right there. When you see what these so-called gods like Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor actually do with their powers, you see how different the League really is. The godhood isn’t the best look on them (although literally those are some lewks and I really like some of them).

Seeing his struggle to get out of it and failing right in front of Alfred was rough. I’m intrigued by Barry’s predicament because he’s not really a god, but a host for one. With the Black Racer being untethered, what are the implications there. I don’t remember if the Black Racer was free and just possessing Barry’s body or if he was out out. I’ll have to check again, but the fact that he was threatening to kill all of those people even when it wasn’t their time doesn’t seem so much like an entity that is just doing its job. Also, how the heck did Darkseid take control of him?

Yeah! When I first read this story, I was like, “We’re not even at the one-shots yet.” I like that it’s a war that comes about because of Darkseid. Even with him out of commission, he’s still the reason behind the conflict. His daughter, the Black Racer, Metron and the Mobius chair, Myrina… It all leads back to him.

I just gotta wonder, when did Myrina get with Darkseid. I guess she’s an assassin for the Amazons, so she’d be able to come and go when on missions. She must have some stories.

Whoa, I didn’t know that. I can’t imagine this story without his art.

Yeah, it’s going to be cool getting to see what gets taken from this story and implemented into the TV Crisis. We should be finding out soon as the next episode is the Arrow episode which will deal with Mobius and Mar Novu. It was pretty clever to tie the Mobius chair and the Anti-Life Equation to the Anti-Monitor.

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I agree with you assessment of Flash and Superman, for the most part. I just don’t know much about New 52 Flash, so I can’t say for certain. Read ahead if you need to, I won’t tell anyone if you finish reading the one-shots, I promise.

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OMG :harley_hv_3: So much information and fascinating points of view to think about right now! I just sat down and caught up on all the posts I hadn’t read yet, and my head is kinda spinning lol. In a good way though :harley_hv_2:

As for whether or not The Flash was created by death, namely the death of his mother, I think that statement is true. I don’t think that the Black Racer was trying to trick or seduce Berry. I think that Black Racer is just trying to point out that death isn’t a force of evil.

In my opinion, death has been a major and direct influence on everything that makes Berry Allen who he is - his role as The Flash, his personality, his ethics, his beliefs, his demeanor, all of it. For example: Berry became a crime scene investigator because of his mother’s death. He was transformed into the Flash because of an accident in his lab while he was trying to solve her case. Berry himself tells us that he fears death, that he desires to control death. In the past, he has attempted to outrun death. A lot of Berry’s personal demons are centered around death and a lot of the aspects of his personality that make him a good hero come from a desire to save everyone else from death.

Do I think that the Flash could have been created had Nora Allen lived? That’s hard to say. I think that it’s definitely a possibility. The events of Flashpoint explore this idea. We get to see a world in which Nora Allen never died, and consequently, the Flash was never created. That’s only the events of one potential timeline though. I’m sure that the laws of time travel would allow for other timelines with other outcomes lol.

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This is a really interesting question. Here’s what we know:

We know that Earth 3/Crime Syndicate’s Earth is in a different universe than ours (I guess it would be considered Universe 3?).
Oa and the Guardians chill at the center of our universe: Earth One’s universe.
We know that Power Ring is native to Earth 3’s universe and that it is essentially a reverse counterpart to the Green Lantern rings in our universe. Whereas the Green Lantern rings are controlled by the user’s willpower; the Power Ring of Universe 3 is basically a parasite that feeds off of its user’s fear (in a nutshell anyway).

So here’s where it starts to seem complicated for me. As far as I’m aware, I’ve never heard any mention of Earth 3/Universe 3 having its own Green Lantern corp. Since the Guardians were the first sentient species and they were present before the creation of the Multiverse and the Anti-Matter Universe, it seems to me that there must be only one Oa, only one set of Guardians, and only one Green Lantern Corps in the Multiverse - all of which are located in our universe - Universe One.

We know that the Green Lantern Corps occasionally have dealings with the Anti-matter universe and that they are one of the few entities that attempt to “police” the Anti-Monitor. We also know that Green Lanterns occasionally travel into the Anti-Matter universe for one reason or another. I’ve never really heard anything about Green Lanterns venturing into other universes though, such as Universe 3 for example.

So, now we see the Anti-Monitor on a multi-universe rampage, during which he has taken out Earth 3/Crime Syndicate’s Earth. As you pointed out, there was no sign of the Lanterns when the Anti-Monitor destroyed Earth 3. But should it be up to the Green Lantern Corps to follow the Anti-Monitor into Universe 3 to protect Earth 3? Would Oa and the Guardians consider that “out of their jurisdiction” and refuse to help for that reason? Are the Lanterns even capable of traveling into Universe 3? We know that they can travel into the Anti-Matter Universe, but is there some limitation that makes them incapable to travel into any of the other universes in the multiverse? Or is it simply as you suggested, did Oa just let it happen? I don’t think that they were already wiped out at that point, but I could definitely see the Guardians deciding to allow the destruction of a world like the Crime Syndicate’s World. I dunno, this one has definitely got me scratching my head here. In all honesty, it’s probably just an overlooked detail that no writer has bothered to address before (or no writer that I’m aware of); but still, it’s an interesting subject to theorize about lol.

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I didn’t realize how economical i was being, so thanks for expanding on what you agree with.

It’s more of a want to and i might tell :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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